Disclaimer:

Disclaimer: If you are easily offended by sheer honesty, or you think me having my own opinions is "being negative", then this is not the place for you, and I suggest you leave and head elsewhere. I call a spade a spade, and I don't sugarcoat anything.

Monday, January 24, 2011

Timmyfan vs. Craigslist Pet Forum

Well this has been an interesting day! I got in on the Craigslist pet forums. If there was ever a place I would think there would be no, or at least fewer, judgmental people, it would be on Craigslist! Craigslist it’s self has a pretty bad reputation. Though I know it’s only because irresponsible people use it. Well, as with all pet forums that I have been on, any thread about breeding automatically warrants the wackjobs to come out and immediately start bashing the poster. I think people should be allowed to ask something without the threat of getting bashed or judged harshly, so when someone comes in and asks for anything, if I can answer, I generally do. It may not be what others want to hear, but it’s in my nature now to be kind.


So, when I got home from church, I was browsing that forum. And there was a poster who called herself ParkerIRL, a newbie, and this is what she asked on the forum:

Aussie breeding question?


My Australian Shepherd Parker is really a fantastic dog. :) He's a working dog, and has fantastic drive. He loves me and is quite protective of me, and he's great with the new baby.


Now a woman that lives a few miles down the street haws an equally awesome female with fantastic drive. She approached me one day while Parker and I were out and about, and brought up the idea of breeding Parker and Bee to create the best working pups ever. This seems like a good idea, since she offered me a puppy AND a stud fee. I'm not concerned with the money, but having a puppy like Parker would be fantastic.


I do have a question, though, since I can't get ahold of her.
Is it guaranteed to have a litter of high-drive Aussie pups if both parents are active workers with great drive?
She has homes lined up for at least 10 puppies, since both of us would be taking one.

Thank you!

Another poster, named BeauChien, was the first to respond, and his post was about the nicest of the posts on this thread, besides mine.

You don't know pedigrees well enough


You have to know the bloodlines and the health of the dogs as well, you need some health testing on both dogs. I would get a copy of both peds and ask experienced Aussie breeders for input FIRST

Then there is the common types on pet forums, the type that start off picking at the posters and sounding hostile toward them. People like gsdlady:

Nothing is guaranteed.....except that


if you do this, you will be become another Back Yard Breeder. Neuter your dog, please.

Obviously the show-breeder type. She chimed in all over the thread about titles and health testing and shit. While I do agree with health-testing and genetic testing, I don’t see the point in titles. It’s all a big game to me! I know show dogs usually look better, but it’s still nothing more than for attention-seeking snobs, for the most part. Though I know not all show breeders have a sucky attitude, I would bet anyone my bottom dollar that gsdlady fits that description of the snobby show breeder type. Last night, I even remember seeing her poking fun at, and mocking, someone else on the forum that had a mental disability! She’s not the kind of person I want anywhere near me, because I would tend to want to punch her in the face if she makes fun of disabled people around me. But that’s the kind of deplorable person gsdlady is! A dumb-ass and a half! She’s a troll, but a different kind of internet troll. The kind that stays on a forum, and is accepted by all others. Makes me sick!

Anyway, this was my response to ParkerIRL:

I would say


if both parents have a good drive to work, chances are pretty darn good that the pups will have this same drive. At least about 80% of them will. Every pup though will have it's own personality, and you may get one that will be a laid-back "couch potato" (as Aussies go). Anyway, that was my experience when I had aussies. But you should still have both parents health tested. An aussie isn't worth anything if it has HD. Just saying. Good luck to you, and hope Parker turns out some nice pups! :)

You know I was just stating my opinion. I have bred Australian shepherds before. It was a project I did with a former boyfriend, but I did it with him for close to 10 years. Well, from 1992 to 1999. Though we split up in 1995, we remained friends and I continued to help him out. He didn’t breed them with the intent to show. He bred them as farm workers, which is what Australian shepherds were originally bred for. He takes part in no agility trials, nor obedience trials. Again, it’s basically all just a game! As long as he does the necessary tests on his dogs, I am fine with that. I gave an opinion based on my own experience. But then maybe it wasn’t genetic. I kept the pups until they were 12 weeks old, so perhaps a lot of what my pups had was more nurture than nature. But there were some pups who were lazier than others anyway, and they had just as much time with their mom.

Well, then someone who calls themselves “LuvsMyChis” came in and stated about me:

IGNORE THIS TROLL ^^^^^ §

So, Rorix09 asked LuvsMyChis:

seemed like an honest opinion..how that trolling §

I agreed with him. Everyone on that forum thinks if you don’t agree with their way of thinking, you are a troll. But the real trolls, like gsdlady, get excused, even though she mocks people who cannot help the way they are. And then another poster named Moss comes in with his warped wisdom:

Because it


appears a careless attempt at thumbing his/her nose at the actually knowledgeable people around here :).

True, I hate show breeders and know-it-alls. But I have just as many rights to post there as these people do. Then LuvsMyChis continues with this argument:

Because look at his handle history


All he does is incite arguments. He knows NOTHING about this subject.

I’d like LuvsMyChis to show me ONE thread where I have intentionally incited an argument. She cannot because I haven’t. I try to be nice to everyone. I prefer not to get all ballistic on forums, I usually like to let the other posters do that. I like to maintain a graceful and dignified nature.

Well, another poster named “1cat1dog” challenged LuvsMyChis:

I see no such thing in the HH §

I thank her for that post, because it seems that LuvsMyChis is pulling threads out of the sky or something. Surprised to see this kind of behavior from another chi lover! But then that’s showbreederism. It’s a disease. Hehe! It’s one that alters your brain. They’re born nice and friendly. But then something happens to them when they get that first show dog, start showing and start breeding.

Well, I like BeauChien, he seems to tell it like it is. He says to LuvsMyChis:

Knowing nothing doesn't mean he can't post here


There's no disclaimer on this page "ONLY THOSE WHO KNOW WHAT THE HELL THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT MAY POST" It's Craigslist. Not a troll, get off it

Apparently LuvsMyChis thinks it’s LuvsMyChis’list. So she snaps at BeauChien:

Well thank goodness youre defending


his comment to produce BYB dogs. Neat.

It was at this point I thought I should set this person straight. Actually I had scrolled down and was engrossed in other threads than this one. Once I refreshed, I noticed all the posts responding to my post. I said to LuvsMyChis:

I just don't believe


in alienating people the way you do. What purpose does that serve? The more hostile you are to people the more likely they will be to shut their eyes and ears to you. You are the reason I hate show breeders so much. So please, if you hate my posts so much, get lost. And don't ever read my posts again. Believe me; you are not hurting my feelings. :) Thank you.

I believe in “education, not alienation”. And I was giving the person who began this thread an idea of what could happen if she bred her dog to another dog, with a high herding drive. And it was based on my own experience. So Moss jumps back in and stated to me:

But you were not educating in this situation.


Your response was anything but that.

I do agree that sharing knowledge (if one has it) is often the better route.

I still believe my response was spot-on! Maybe Moss has had different experiences, that he can share. But what I posted was my own experience, and I was sharing without alienating the poster. So gsdlady comes back into the picture:

I guess you've never seen a litter of HD


puppies from OFA'd parents, heh? There are NO guarantees....it is a crap shoot, truth be told. We, as humans, try to educate ourselves as much as possible to move the percentages in our favor, but NOTHING is for sure when breeding. Too tell a novice that they will get 80% ANYTHING is terribly irresponsible and blatantly shows your lack of experience.

I decided to give gsdlady an example I’ve seen on television recently, about a group of students who bred some laboratory rats. I thought it was a good example that sometimes characteristics are inherited:

A few weeks ago


I saw a documentary about a group who took some labratory rats, some had good temperaments and were very sweet and tame, some had more flighty temperaments. The students bred the gentler, more tame rats together and created rats that had puppy dog temperaments. While the more high-strung rats had babies that, even with just as much socialization as the tamer rats, still had a very wild temperament. That will explain the temperament issue. I would say the same holds true for dogs. One dog with a high herding drive, bred with another is much more likely to produce pups with a good herding drive.

"I guess you've never seen a litter of HD puppies from OFA'd parents, heh?"

Depends on what the OFA results were. If they were clear on all tests, the pups should be fine. Shouldn't they? :)

So gsdlady chimes back in:

Exactly...


But they did this with MULTIPLE generations! The OP doesn't have a clue about the temperaments of the siblings or grand parents....probably not even the parents of both the sire and dam of this future litter.

I know about the phenotype issues with breeding a litter. I am not blind to that. What I gave the poster was just an estimate. So I stated:

"But they did this with MULTIPLE generations!"


And I never said they didn't. :)

Smart-ass! But that’s a show breeder for you! They put words in other peoples’ mouths! Seems to be a common practice among those unfortunate people with showbreederism. Nothing to do but feel sorry for them. So here it comes, one of the symptoms of this disease, childish ranting, demonstrated here by gsdlady:

So what does that have to do with the OP?


This is a completely unknown, blind, outcross breeding. You have no idea what these dogs are going to produce and I still think your 80% number was pulled out of your ass. Why encourage a potential BYBer by quoting made up stats?

Total-ass jerk! I guess she’s never heard of something called a “ballpark figure”, which is what I was giving the OP (original poster). She hangs on to that “80%” as if it’s some kind of lifeline for her. She’s beginning to sound like the dumbasses on YouTube. Yet, I tend to still want to maintain my calm position. I counterattack her comment with a completely cool, reasonable debate:

:P


"I still think your 80% number was pulled out of your ass."


Think whatever you like, it doesn't matter to me. I base my opinions on my own personal experiences. Not what you read in books or magazine articles, or whatever it is you read from. :) In a litter I had of 7 puppies, from parents who both had a good herding instinct, only 2 came out couch-potatoes.

That should have explained it. I admit I gave one example of a litter that turned out that way, but I did not feel the need to run down my entire life’s history with gsdlady. She is simply not that important to me. And later on, I would tell her so. So just then, LuvsMyChis comes back! I thought I gave her the option to ignore my posts, but she just keeps coming back for more. She said about my example:

So that one litter makes you the expert?


wow. You sound more ignorant the more you post

And yet another symptom of showbreederism, they think they are the funniest people on the planet. They’re not. They’re actually nothing but crotchety dumbasses. And this post of gsdlady’s proves it:

Like I always say....just give 'em a little rope


They'll hang themselves. LOL!!!

I swear, I could use gsdlady in a dictionary to describe snotty show breeders! People like her is the reason I hate them so much. Yet, they think they are doing all good. But I just want to slap them sometimes, as hard as I can! Perhaps harder. So I respond to LuvsMyChis:

Hmmm, I thought you were


not going to read my posts anymore. Oh well. hehe! :)
"So that one litter makes you the expert?"
Who said I only bred one litter?

Gsdlady was not through yet. Again, she thinks she’s the funniest person on the planet, when she couldn’t be more wrong. She needs to get laid I think! She retorts in childish tones:

Oh SUPER!!!


You're basing your stats on ONE litter? I'm sorry I didn't realize what an expert you were....what was I thinking?


I said to her again, who said I bred only one litter? In fact, I bred several. Not a dozen, but quite a few. But again, I believe this was some kind of attempt by gsdlady to get me to tell her my whole life’s story, and I am not going to do it! But I stayed silent for a while longer. I wanted to see how far she would take this.

So the symptoms of Showbreederism are apparent here in this post by LuvsMyChis, where she is putting her own words in my mouth. One of the biggest and worst symptoms of the disease:

So youre a byb encouraging a potential byb


And youre the one who quopted the statistics of that ONE LITTER as the AUTHORITATIVE measurment by which ALL litters should be judged.


And I’d like to know where I said ALL litters should be judged by that. If she had read my post correctly, she would know that I said “ABOUT 80% OF A LITTER” Key word is “about”, in this case, meaning the same as saying “approximately”. It’s a guess. Meant to be taken as nothing more than such. But like gsdlady, LuvsMyChis hangs on to that like some kind of desperate salvation.

Well, since I like doing things the old fashioned way, and not get caught up in shows or agility trials or any of that BS, I thought I should inform this person:

I believe in doing things


the old fashioned way. I was brought up on a farm, that's my beliefs. Sorry if you don't like it.

Again, that’s what aussies were bred for. Most people who get any dog do not care if the dog has champion titles or anything. A dog can be just as good a pet without any titled parents or grandparents in it’s background. And a title does not guarantee the dog will have a good temperament or be good at herding sheep or goats.

So anyway, LuvsMyChis comes back again:

Excellent. Raised on a farm therefore makes


you an expert. NOT!! At least we all(including OP) can now know that you were talking completely out of your ass

At this time, I am still maintaining my cool. I haven’t even called her or gsdlady names. I’ve been letting them run off with that. Doesn’t mean I didn’t want to choke this person, just means I have kept my calm on a forum, and that is what my goal was here. So gsdlady gripes about the fact that my example spoke of only one litter:

What difference does it make?


You are using one litter as your example. One litter means nothing, absolutely nothing.

So finally, I decide to ask her what her angle is. I know she wants to hear my life’s history, and if she was someone I know, or whose opinion I value, I would gladly have given it to her. But she’s not. So I tell her:

What do you want?


For me to run down the line of all the litters I've had and known that have turned out the same way? If that's really what you want I will give it to you. I'd have to go back 16 years to find all the paperwork though, call all those people who bought pups from me, hope that they aren't at work or something (they do work in the winter months), contact their vets and all that to get the proof you want. And honestly and quite frankly, if I was going to go to all that trouble, it'd be for someone I consider WAY more important in my life than you or LuvsMyChis (Who I will bet you does not even have a chi). :) So sorry if you don't believe what I say, but that's your prerogative.

OK, so I decided to take a little tug at LuvMyChis’ leash! LOL! I didn’t really think she didn’t have a Chihuahua, I was playing a bit of tit-for-tat to teach her a lesson in manners. As for my last sentence, basically I was telling gsdlady that I don’t give two shits what she thinks, and that’s true. She has her views and I have mine. And she’s not going to change me. So she sings me a song-and-dance number:

If you truly cared about this subject,


you'd have records you could pull out. Kind of like when I'm doing research on a particular bloodline and OFA every puppy in the litter. I guess the old fashioned, farm mentality can't wrap their head around that.

I’m pretty sure that last sentence was said with a lot of disparagement. Kindof like she is saying all farmers are stupid. Another symptom of Showbreederism. I always felt what is said between myself and my clients is sacred, and I never reveal any information to the average Joe Blow on a forum for that reason. Gsdlady has given me no good reason to show her any information about dogs I have or dogs I have bred. Except that it might change her personal opinion of me. I am not there to change anyone’s views of me. Gsdlady can think what she wants about me, and continue to do so. I don’t care. My life does not revolve around what she, or any other person stricken with Showbreederism, thinks of me. I try being nice to everyone, but when some dumb show breeder like this gets in my face and tries to pull me down to their level, I’m not gonna give! So, I stated to gsdlady:

Then maybe


I just don't care what you think. Sorry. I don't even breed anymore (in case you missed that post), the 3 dogs I have now are all spayed/neutered. Like I said, I could pull out those records, but I'm not going to. Not for you. If you were a former client of mine, I would gladly do so. But you aren't. You've formed your opinion of me, and that is fine. I can move on from there. :)

So anyway, back to LuvsMyChis, from when I stated I didn’t believe she had a Chihuahua:

Oh yes genius... I have 2 chis


wow you really are a moron

Childish name-calling, another symptom of Showbreederism! LOL! And you will notice I never once called her any names. Guess the Timmy fans and us “dumb farmers” are better than show breeders after all. Hehehe! But I continued to toy with her a bit more:

I doubt it


Thank you :)

She gives me the kind of response I had hoped to see come from her, she asks me (name calling included):

Why would u doubt what I have


other than the obvious fact, that you are a troll looking to start SHIT. Its my handle name that i chose for an obvious reason: I have chis. Like its soooo hard to believe? They are among the most popular breed in the country idiot. Mine were adopted from the HS where I volunteer 2 times a week to helpo all the BYB dogs that people like you have created. You really are a sad little person with no life aren't you??

I was hoping she would ask me that! This was my response to her:

So....


How does it feel when someone judges you and doesn't believe you? I am not a troll. At least not in the manner you are thinking. I try to be nice to everyone. Even you, though you have lashed out at me, called me names and judged me, yet you know nothing about me. And BTW, I too have chis. Vegas and Odessa (both are FIXED). I know how popular they are. I never claimed to be an expert on chihuahuas (or Aussies for that matter). YOU said I claimed to be an expert. I was just giving someone an idea of what *could* happen, based on my own experience. Open their minds to all possibilities.

Honestly, I didn’t give a shit what LuvsMyChis thinks of me either. I just didn’t want everyone believing what she said about me. What if someone I know and like is on that forum? And they happened to believe that LuvsMyChis knows even the slightest thing about me? Even though she doesn’t, what if they believed her? She seems to be the one who just cannot let go of the fact I gave the original poster an estimate on the temperament of the pups. Just because it’s not based on published reports, does not mean that I didn’t experience it. But sadly, the final symptom of Showbreederism, they never believe anything unless they can see it with their own eyes. That is so unfortunate. If you share a personal experience with anyone, you risk being ridiculed by the show breeders, just because they were not there to see it for themselves. It is apparent in this comment made by LuvsMyChis:

"At least 80% of them WILL" sounds like you


are the one claiming to be an expert. I quote you here:


"if both parents have a good drive to work, chances are pretty darn good that the pups will have this same drive. At least about 80% of them will."


You are the one claiming knowledge you don't have, trying to argue the point throughout the thread tho you were outed as a bullshitter very eaqrly on, and in general just being argumentative.
 And then you signed off with a sweet little "good luck BYBing!" **GAGGING

She was confused, so I set her straight:

OK, Here's what I said


"At least about 80% of them will".


I said "At least *ABOUT 80%*". Meaning it could be more or less. If I said it in the way you thought I did, then I can see your point.


"in general just being argumentative."
 No, I was not argumentative. I was stating an opinion. That is all. If you had taken it for what it was worth, we would not be in this confrontation now. Sorry, but you were the one who started off being argumentative with me, by telling the poster "IGNORE this TROLL!!" when you knew nothing of my situation. Thank you anyways for your opinion. Hope we can meet again on friendlier terms. From one chi-lover to another, Thank you. :)

Sure, I was being argumentative. I was not the one who called you names and judged you harshly. But my last sentence was indeed sincere. Like I said before, I never wish ill on anyone. So then LuvsMyChis finally gets a clue how she appeared to me. Wow! That’s unusual for a show breeder. But she seems to not be able to temper it without harsh judgment.

I did start snarkiness, I was just so shocked


to see that you would so clearly encourage a potential BYBer to begin BYBing. As everyone else was using LOGIC and FACTS to support their resounding "NO! NO! Don't breed!", you chime in with "GO ahead, it'll be 80% awesome!" then have defended it with unfounded ridiculous statements. I apologize for calling you a troll. The correct term is uneducated hobby farm BYBer who attempts to speak knowledge that you don't have in order to encourage other BYBers. Is that more accurate for you?

I think I was helping someone who wanted to breed her dog for the possible purpose of farm work. There are good ways to do it. And I don’t believe you can make anyone see your way by being snarky or cruel. I was never that way! I just tell someone how to go about breeding the proper way, and then let them take it from there. Sure I have been accused of being cruel, but it was generally by people whose egos got in the way of them learning. So, I respond to her last question and comment:

Well, let's look


"The correct term is uneducated hobby farm BYBer who attempts to speak knowledge that you don't have in order to encourage other BYBers. Is that more accurate for you?"
"hobby farm BYBer"


I guess it depends on how you look at it. I did show chihuahuas a couple times. Or I tried to. So at least when I was working on them, I made some attempt in conformation competitions. I did grow up on a small farm, so I'd say yes to "hobby farmer".

My idea of what a BYBer is is someone who does no health testing, and sells the pups for profit. Since I did do tests on their thyroids and patellas, etc, and yes I sold some pups, but made no profit whatsoever, not sure if I qualify as a true BYBer. And in the 7 years I did chihuahuas, I only bred 3 litters, only 1 of which was from a not-so-good female, but I still kept in contact with those who got pups from me, and even offered a "reward" for those who spayed/neutered their pups to prevent them from breeding. This last litter, only had one pup, and I kept him (Vegas) because that was my intent all along. And I even neutered him. He could have been shown, I had a mentor evaluate him and said he was good enough, but I decided I no longer wanted to go that route (due to complicated issues), so I neutered him and said so long to the show ring.
 Now, uneducated I think that's a different matter. A matter of your own opinion. Just because I don't believe in alienating newbies does not mean I am uneducated. I think instead of alienating people we should just tell them what it takes to breed, and then let them decide for themselves if they want to go through it. Like I said, Aussies and other herding breeds have been being bred by small hobby farm BYBer's for many years, no agility or obedience competitions were needed. Assuming this person is simply raising dogs for herding on a small town farming community, I answered her question, based on my own experience in Aussies (which I, and a former boyfriend, bred for 10 years). He's still breeding them, I'm not. I'm no longer with him. Though I keep in contact because he is also just my friend. And yes, he does the necessary testing. Like I said an Aussie with HD is useless in herding, and he breeds his for no other reason, but for herding sheep, goats, etc.

Sorry I got long winded there.


That’s the sign of a person with showbreederism, they call everyone they don’t agree with “uneducated”. Why I keep going in those forums is beyond me! I guess for the entertainment value. I mean, let’s face it, drama is entertaining! I haven’t really been a part of a forum in quite a while now. Since 2008. There are a few I do occasionally go into, but not often. I’m actually kinda glad this happened on this forum. Going into a pet forum and being able to keep your cool, that’s a test in and of it’s self! A lot of their responses consisted of a lot of mock-sarcasm (Katrina calls it “blowcasm”), so I generally prepare myself for that every time I go in there. I thank GOD I have friends I can talk to and visit when the actions on that forum get to be a bit much. But even with this incident, I haven’t experienced anything I cannot handle.
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